Help selecting a low cost receiver.

[moonbase]

There is a balance that needs to be found here.

From his earlier comments I think that @cayoenrique might have a limited budget to spend on a receiver?
However, to get 16APSK, 32APSK and DVB-S2X in a receiver needs a model that is not in the budget end of the market.

If the budget for purchase of a receiver does not extend to some of the more expensive models with all the features required by @cayoenrique then some type of compromise is needed.
Increase the budget or decrease the specification.

My advice is go for an Octagon SF8008 and accept what it can receive in the knowledge that it is probably the best value for money with respect to tuner sensitivity and modulations/standards that it can receive.

 

[mdkgr]

@EnoSat
As I been away for more that 5 years I have no knowledge of DVB-S2X with ShortFrameRate/ShortMode mode. But will be happy to learn.

Now do you have any knowledge on the suggested equipment, which have good tuners?

AMIKO VIPER 4K V40 TWIN DVB-S2X 4K UHD
Octagon SF8008
ZGEMMA H9.2H 4K UHD
TBS5930 lite

@mdkgr
I currently own a TBS QBOX S2 (USB). But It can not lock on 8osk nor hi fec s etc. Ir can be use to do spectrum scan by using Prof 7500 firmware. But the new transponders are 8/16/32 psk. And I do have an old PC that I used as a HTPC. But I want to reduce power consumption for long lasting TV used..

Now TBS5930 lite does it have a good Tuner? What about the problems described by EnoSat or the HI SR problems seen on some transponders?
Do you own one?
How it work for you?
Where is the best place to purchase on America for quality, or Alliexpres chinese versions are fine?
I need check about Linux drivers too.

Listen guys, I do not want to spent a lot as I should by new antenna Hardware too, like new lnbs with low noise figures? Mines are 10 years or older.

But willing to listen to all suggestions. Let say most of you say you most by Octagon SF8008. Then I will consider that too.

Again THANKS to all

By spec your card should lock 8PSK its DVB-S2 card and most of TPs use this modulation

spectrum scan = blindscan? if so card has to have chip for blindscan, QBOX 5980 has this chip which should do the job, which model you got exactly? big possibility that maybe you got driver issue also, Prof 7500 firmware? why ?

As about high SR there are no real problems generally with these cards, some times occur and your card i think uses STV0903 which got pretty good sensivity

As about power consumption be more specific.

 

[cayoenrique]

As expected my last C Band LNB is not woking as expected. So it will not do 8pks. In other words I need to purchase new Ku an C band Lnb with low noise figures.

Before start, can any one confirm that forever, gshsre etc have no support for satellite in America? Maybe I am wrong and there is hope for any of the Sky signal here.

On Objective, 1rst of all I am here because I am the one that have no knowledge and I am the one I need help. So I am not correcting any one. I am happy to learn from your experience.

moonbase I disagree on "However, to get 16APSK, 32APSK and DVB-S2X in a receiver needs a model that is not in the budget end of the market.". And EnoSat is saying that Octagon SF8008 do fail to lock on some DVB-S2X SFR test.
Again, as I understand, he is not saying Octagon SF8008 is not good. But only letting me know there are issues on some DVB-S2X transponders. Something about ShortFrameRate or ShortMode Mode. So I did ask witch receivers have no Issues. He pointed out that an old model, low budget ( $67) M88RS6060 - ZGEMMA H11S has no issues with it. Now problem is that Alliexpress do not carry that model, the only seller is asking About $155 USD. Interesting

@EnoSat Where can I find receiver table by tuner. So I can search witch model uses M88RS6060.
I found thread where you an crazycat discuss M88RS6060 SDK & TBS 5930, something about making it do FFTScan
Did you got your TBS 5930 working with crazyscan?

@dvlajkovic very nice, but my PCs are old and have no PCI-e port.
Listen guys, at one point in the future I may get some extra $$, and I will definitely be purchasing a extra USB PCSAT, new PC and GPU and even my Luxurious new C-Band antenna. But at the moment I am in low budget.

@mdkgr
TBS did sold various models of QBOX S2. I purchase mine at the end. They sold me something that look like a clone. Original box was like this

But what they sold me has QBOX3 housing just as a Prof7500 and the model is TBS QBox2(5920). And as expected very limited info available!!. TBS even told me they do not recognize the model!!! A device they sold me. HEHEHE.

So Why prof 7500 firmware. Because a Russian Hacker call crazycat created a mod so that the 5920 can do Blind Scan and Spectrum Scan. Just do a search with "crazyscan 5920".

Blindscan is the process of geting transponder info.
Spectrumscan is capturing the whole bandwith and creating an image

Now my QBOX 2 did detect 8PSK but was never capable of capturing channels. It has never provided me 8PSK joy. It will not work now that it is old.

 

[cayoenrique]

By the way in Linus we use updatedvb

 

[cayoenrique]

Umm! I forgot about USA 5G using 3.7-4.0. Need to double check if I have good signal between 4.0-4.2GB. Hopefully 4125 and4130 are OK. But most likely will need new Cband with 5G filter.

 

[moonbase]

moonbase I disagree on "However, to get 16APSK, 32APSK and DVB-S2X in a receiver needs a model that is not in the budget end of the market.". And EnoSat is saying that Octagon SF8008 do fail to lock on some DVB-S2X SFR test.
Again, as I understand, he is not saying Octagon SF8008 is not good. But only letting me know there are issues on some DVB-S2X transponders. Something about ShortFrameRate or ShortMode Mode. So I did ask witch receivers have no Issues. He pointed out that an old model, low budget ( $67) M88RS6060 - ZGEMMA H11S has no issues with it. Now problem is that Alliexpress do not carry that model, the only seller is asking About $155 USD. Interesting

I have told you that the zgemma H11S has blind scan problems.
How do I know this, because I had one and tested it.

It is up to you to decide if the bad blind scan of the zgemma 11S is an important feature.
The other brand of receivers you could look at are the Edision MIO and the Edision MINI, they are both DVB-S2X but I am not sure if they can cope with the short frame rate mode.
Perhaps @EnoSat will be able to advise you on this point?

As I said earlier, you are probably going to have to compromise as there is no receiver that I am aware of that does everything you want in a good efficient manner?
Each of them have their own minor issues.

 

[moonbase]

... I just warn anyone who is interested in the new technologies DVB-IP, MPE, SIS, DAB,... which already enjoy the various features of DVB-S2X, should take into account the HW features....

@EnoSat

Would you please have a list of receivers or external USB devices that support these new technologies?
Is there one single receiver/device that can do all of them or most of them?

 

[EnoSat]

At home I only have Dreambox DM900, Mutant HD51, Edision OSmio 4K, Octagon SF8008 and TBS5925/5530/5220.
So I can only test on these, but next information can be found on the Internet.
Today, for example, I'm trying the Simmin IP platform from 27W after the SR change, but it seems that they started using MODCODe as well, which doesn't quite suit my TBS anymore.

Album — Postimages

postimg.cc

Also, EDISION can no longer LOCK (there was no problem with the original SR)

 

[mdkgr]

Bro all of them are clones of really expensive hardware, i believe most likely that you have made some corrupt driver, my suggestion is (because i know the dude crazycat and experimenting long time now) to put stock firmware and driver and try then and also use EBS software for spectrum , personnaly i use proffesional equipement like PROMAX analyzer i dont rely on pc or some box to do pro spectrum analyze.

@mdkgr
TBS did sold various models of QBOX S2. I purchase mine at the end. They sold me something that look like a clone. Original box was like this

DVB-S2X tech lack of capabilities of DVB-S2 tuner and chipsets, no blindscan in every card i used.

I can help you to carry on whatever are you trying , 5G is problem worldwide about C-band,

And again i will suggest the original suggestion i did, buy a cheap medium spec older gen laptop and use your usb card there (correctly installed), its less power consuption than everything you got already
The lnb dont do magic that you imagine usually, older lnbs perform much better, the problem was that were modular for H/V the really old models.

You should really start using EBS software with correct firm and drivers.

P.S.
1) your card is 5922 and you dont need support from them(never gonna get for what you want to do) just to do it properly on your own.
2) you are lucky that you didnt brick it yet with the firmware changes you did, even if the same exactly hardware there maybe difference on the cards chip design.

I will try when i have time with an ancient card that uses the same chip as your card and is PCI (no PCI-express) by the way it locks 8PSK BECAUSE ITS NATIVE IN DVB-S2

My dinosaur card is

TechnoTrend TT budget S2-3200 DVB-S2 PCI​

It has better sensitivity than any new i have used and locked most of the TPs i tried, never got some real problem like the new cards and tech about DVB, the only real problem is that it is PCI and is slow on initialization.

If providers are changing tech and modulations you will never lock until they have finalized their projects and provide the data about their upgrades.

Also try to remember that all of these are clones of clone, nothing is perfect and usually there is no support from them. Only experience gained by using them in experimental ways.

Why you need to do spectrum analysis?

We usually do it when we need to find a freq and maximize its signal if we cant find it tradiotionally. Specifically on antenna setup.

 

[cayoenrique]

@all
As I said I am here to get your experience before buying. I been without Sat equipment for over 5 years. No hurry, I can wait a little longer while you provide your experience. I want a receiver for every day TV use, no special project.

But yes if you read my post on Encryption Chat, to do some logging I was motivated to return and have a Sat system working now. But that has no importance on receiver selection. Unless some one show some light if any America Sat provider is on the list of any of the IKS Sharing providers.

A note on Cellular 5G, yes I know 5G generate noise in C-Band for most of the world. But in USA is worst. It is not just noise jumping from other frequencies. In USA, the FCC(Government) Re sold the lower part of C-BAND 3.7-4.0Gz, well 3.6-3.7 was already gone.
They convince the Sat community to liberate 3.7-4.0 Gz while the Government made them compensation payments. So we do have out of frequency noise jusy ;ike all fo you. But we also have 5G actually been transmitted at 3.7-4.0 Gz.

@EnoSat

You never reported me if you will consider that TBS5930 works on crazyscan/esb etc. Can it do blindscan, spectrum or FFTScan, I can only guess your silence means no.

@moonbase
Yes I have noted that "that the zgemma H11S has blind scan problems.". Message received. If I responded you about H11S was to show that it contradicts your comment on "..model that is not in the budget end of the market."
I know more money we spent more feature and quality received. And as you did ask, I too will love to know if there is a receiver that do most of todays transponders. even if it cost more. It will be our base line.

@mdkgr
Thanks for your suggestion. I have Laptops and PCs, no need for extra one. Except for PCI-E that I do not have on my PCs. The following is not to correct you but to clear those question you did make me.

About firmware. In general WIndows pack firmware or microfirmware inside Windows Driver. A windows user do not have to know about it.
In Linux firmware/microfirmware are separate thing from driver. We as OS users have to worry of having the needed firmware located in our Linux OS. But as Windows user when you install your driver most likely the firmware is added too to the OS.

About brick it yet with the firmware changes. It does not work like a firmware for a phone, where you can brick it.
There are a few devices that are packed with a generic USB Interface. So it can talk with Windows PC. But it does not have the code to function, in other words, the device will do nothing once it is hook because it is a blank black box.
So every time you powerof device or rehook USB, Windows see its VendorID+ProductID, it knows it has to send the firmware needed. After it device is reboot, usually with new VendorID+ProductID, And then the device works as expected. Now it has the code to do its function. It is a Live/temporary programing. Not like a Phone or Receiver that has a one time Fix Programing. Now Why manufacturers do such a thing!!! Well the device is cheaper because they do not have to include a Flash eMMC. All run from ram.

I show you, in linux it is easy to see a debug

Let say I am in Linux and I have no firmware on OS. So device do not work. This is what I find in USB.

Bus 002 Device 004: ID 04b4:8613 Cypress Semiconductor Corp. CY7C68013 EZ-USB FX2 USB 2.0 Development Kit

PC do not even know it is a dvb device. It recognized as a FX2 USB 2.0 Development Kit

Now let me install the firmware, in this case 2 of them: dvb-usb-dw2102.fw dvb-usb-p7500.fw

Now I hook USB and I see:

[  279.933272] usb 2-1.1: new high-speed USB device number 7 using ehci-pci
[  280.041845] usb 2-1.1: New USB device found, idVendor=04b4, idProduct=8613, bcdDevice=a0.01
[  280.041852] usb 2-1.1: New USB device strings: Mfr=0, Product=0, SerialNumber=0
[  280.348098] usbtest 2-1.1:1.0: FX2 device
[  280.348101] usbtest 2-1.1:1.0: high-speed {control bulk-in bulk-out} tests (+alt)
[  280.348128] usbcore: registered new interface driver usbtest
[  280.348129] systemd-udevd[19391]: Process '/sbin/fxload -D  -I /lib/firmware/dvb-usb-p7500.fw.hex -t fx2 -m 0666' failed with exit code 255.
[  280.554116] usb 2-1.1: USB disconnect, device number 7
[  282.313267] usb 2-1.1: new high-speed USB device number 8 using ehci-pci
[  282.422040] usb 2-1.1: config 1 interface 0 altsetting 0 bulk endpoint 0x81 has invalid maxpacket 2
[  282.422616] usb 2-1.1: New USB device found, idVendor=3034, idProduct=7500, bcdDevice= 0.00
[  282.422622] usb 2-1.1: New USB device strings: Mfr=1, Product=2, SerialNumber=0
[  282.422626] usb 2-1.1: Product: DVB-S USB
[  282.422629] usb 2-1.1: Manufacturer: Prof Group
[  282.720230] dvb-usb: found a 'Prof 7500 USB DVB-S2' in cold state, will try to load a firmware
[  282.729989] dvb-usb: downloading firmware from file 'dvb-usb-p7500.fw'
[  282.729991] dw2102: start downloading DW210X firmware
[  282.845281] dvb-usb: found a 'Prof 7500 USB DVB-S2' in warm state.
[  282.845532] dvb-usb: will pass the complete MPEG2 transport stream to the software demuxer.
[  282.845691] dvbdev: DVB: registering new adapter (Prof 7500 USB DVB-S2)
[  282.845696] usb 2-1.1: media controller created
[  282.975037] dvb-usb: MAC address: ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff
[  282.975288] dvbdev: dvb_create_media_entity: media entity 'dvb-demux' registered.
[  282.993191] stv090x_attach: Create New Internal Structure!
[  282.993194] stv090x_setup: Initializing STV0903
[  283.041257] stv090x_setup: Setting up initial values
[  283.078335] stv090x_setup: Setting up Cut 2.0 initial values
[  283.089197] stv090x_attach: Attaching STV0903 demodulator(1) Cut=0x20
[  283.089203] dw2102: Found STV0900 @0x6a
[  283.093358] stb6100_attach: Attaching STB6100 
[  283.093359] dw2102: Found STB6100 @0x60
[  283.093543] dw2102: Attached STV0900+STB6100A!
[  283.093549] usb 2-1.1: DVB: registering adapter 0 frontend 0 (STV090x Prof 7500)...
[  283.093554] dvbdev: dvb_create_media_entity: media entity 'STV090x Prof 7500' registered.
[  283.121269] Registered IR keymap rc-empty
[  283.121382] rc rc0: Prof 7500 USB DVB-S2 as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.0/usb2/2-1/2-1.1/rc/rc0
[  283.121417] input: Prof 7500 USB DVB-S2 as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.0/usb2/2-1/2-1.1/rc/rc0/input27
[  283.121498] dvb-usb: schedule remote query interval to 150 msecs.
[  283.121500] dvb-usb: Prof 7500 USB DVB-S2 successfully initialized and connected.
[  283.121536] usbcore: registered new interface driver dw2102

See 1rst 6 line it is where FX2 USB 2.0 Development Kit is detected.
In line7, with fxload -D -I /lib/firmware/dvb-usb-p7500.fw.hex I force the load of the 7500 firmware
Line 8 to the end, the normal process is performed. In fact Firmwares are re upload and dvb tuner, frontend, demuxers are initialaze.
At the end I endup with Prof 7500 USB DVB-S2 successfully initialized and connected
Now you are correct, once I see if I can have a strong 8psk signal, I should re install old original windows driver from TBS. They are going to be about 5 years old because TBS now do not even recognize TBS5920 existence.
Why we need Spectrum? A guy like you most have a motorized sat antenna. You do not have to worry about manually align an antenna. God bless you. Now Spectrum Image is the most easy way to know you are manually pointing to a Satellite. The Satellite Spectrum is UNIQUE for each satellite. So just by a 2-3 second scan you can rapidly distinguish what satellite you are pointing. Plus if you see a Spike, it means there is a close by noise that is affecting your reception. So it is easyly just to use ONLY the Prof7500 for ONLY manual antenna adjust, while using regular driver for best reception, in the event that you are correct.

 

[EnoSat]

According to what they wrote on the TBS forum about the 5930, it still needs a lot of work to be usable like the 5925 or 5927.

 

[cayoenrique]

@EnoSat
You just said "According to what they wrote.." I thought you own a TBS5930. That why I insisted in getting your response. Thanks anyway.

@mdkgr
I done as you ask, and because I wanted to refresh on the issue. In general as expected, TBS5920 official drivers was not build for Blindscan. Here is result
Removed ALL old drivers. Reinstalled official DriverVer= 01/18/2010, 2.0.3.0

Interestingly I can see driver is for both TBS5020 & TBS5928

[TBS]
"QBOX DVB-S2 BDA"= QBOXS2BDA.Device, USB\VID_734C&PID_5920
"QBOX DVB-S2 BDA"= QBOXS2BDA.Device, USB\VID_734C&PID_5928

So next I will search for new drivers for TBS5928 as I can not find mine on official site. Report latter.

Results, same as in the past. If I try EBSPro with Official Driver, Windows will crash with a Critical BLUE Screen. Now rain have not allow me to test if general 8psk signal reception can improve with official drivers. That is next.
In fact I hope to get to my roof antenna where it is pointed to 58W Sky Mexico. That signal is strong as hell. Hope fully that antenna test will show if at least I can scan channels. As I do not know if one of the 8PSK may have FTA Channels.

By the way, what I call Spectrum is named in ESBPro as RFScan I totally forgot about ESBPro capabilities.


@all
I know I write a lot. But if you have more good Receiver Options PLEASE name the model. I will truly appreciate if you share your experience with me.
Weird, in Linux my laptop battery was showing signs of oldness, charge will not go over 66%. As a SIDE EFFECT for using windows!!! now my laptop battery show it can charge 100%. HEHEHEHE.

 

[mdkgr]

Results, same as in the past. If I try EBSPro with Official Driver, Windows will crash with a Critical BLUE Screen. Now rain have not allow me to test if general 8psk signal reception can improve with official drivers. That is next.
In fact I hope to get to my roof antenna where it is pointed to 58W Sky Mexico. That signal is strong as hell. Hope fully that antenna test will show if at least I can scan channels. As I do not know if one of the 8PSK may have FTA Channels.

I personally use EBSpro (BETA) 17.0.0.0, i heard if a remember correctly in the forum that older versions work nice.

I will try to find the thread that might help you about EBS

 

[mdkgr]

@mdkgr
I done as you ask, and because I wanted to refresh on the issue. In general as expected, TBS5920 official drivers was not build for Blindscan. Here is result
Removed ALL old drivers. Reinstalled official DriverVer= 01/18/2010, 2.0.3.0

Interestingly I can see driver is for both TBS5020 & TBS5928

[TBS]
"QBOX DVB-S2 BDA"= QBOXS2BDA.Device, USB\VID_734C&PID_5920
"QBOX DVB-S2 BDA"= QBOXS2BDA.Device, USB\VID_734C&PID_5928

So next I will search for new drivers for TBS5928 as I can not find mine on official site. Report latter.

Official TBS driver for your card 5922

There is also a tool called TBS Blind Scan v3.0.2.2 that might help you, i have no experience about it.

and driver version TBS5922 Windows Driver V2.0.3.2. + TBS Linux Driver v170330, also there is a Windows 10 driver u might have to experiment with them.

TBS Download Center-Update the Latest Window & Linux Driver

TBS will update the latest window and Linux drivers from time to time. Please download the TBS software and driver here.

www.tbsdtv.com

I hope you will be able to rsolv some issues.

 

[cayoenrique]

I made a Type error I wrote TBS5920 I mean TBS5920. And I have ONLY Win7 at the moment.

Now I am no expert for recent TBS receiver. But TBS consider Blind Scan a Pay for use feature. They intentionally remove all blind-scan capabilities from most drivers. ONLY the expensive receivers are allow to do blind-scan. I said this because in your comments you seems to believe that blind-scan is a feature ALL TBS should do. And that is not true. See the recent list of devices:

https://www.tbsiptv.com/filter

And BIG THANKS for giving me Ideas and hopes. I am definitely trying your suggestions. Listen I do not use Windows. And for you I am doing it. You are the reason my battery reads 100% charge now

 

[mdkgr]

I made a Type error I wrote TBS5920 I mean TBS5920. And I have ONLY Win7 at the moment.

Now I am no expert for recent TBS receiver. But TBS consider Blind Scan a Pay for use feature. They intentionally remove all blind-scan capabilities from most drivers. ONLY the expensive receivers are allow to do blind-scan. I said this because in your comments you seems to believe that blind-scan is a feature ALL TBS should do. And that is not true. See the recent list of devices:

https://www.tbsiptv.com/filter

And BIG THANKS for giving me Ideas and hopes. I am definitely trying your suggestions. Listen I do not use Windows. And for you I am doing it. You are the reason my battery reads 100% charge now

Dont use the windows 10 driver then from TBS

Blindscan its a feature depends on a specific Chipset-IC, not all cards have it.

Yours do have it STV0903. check the link

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjO5JGU5pGDAxWmSfEDHRqKDP0QFnoECBEQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.hackaday.io%2Ffiles%2F295841265721856%2FSTV0903BAC.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1mbCPa69XiXk8J_06dxPwu&opi=89978449

I got frustrated when i started using them, in reallity it took me some time to setup them propely, in time i have improved things since then. Knowledge gained through troubleshooting when trying to make them work properly.

 

[EnoSat]

You just said "According to what they wrote.." I thought you own a TBS5930. That why I insisted in getting your response. Thanks anyway.

I wrote above what cards I own

 

[cayoenrique]

@mdkgr
A gain BIG THANKS.
At 1rst impression your suggestions where to simple, I could had said it will not work. But men you force me to look deeper. And there it is.

So I was looking for TBS5920, and fail.

Since not by model then I select by product decryption, so I did select
TBS QBOX2 DVB-S2 TV Tuner USB Witch sent me to generic

https://www.tbsdtv.com/download/index.html
https://www.tbsdtv.com/download/index.html?path=0_6

And I have download all. So at the end is the same thing as you did ask me to do was TBS5922 witch most likely sent me to same genetic download page.

Now to be clear, TBS 2015 drivers where manipulated not to do Blind Scan. STV0903, I know that is why Crazycat used Prof7500 drivers.

I hope you are correct and TBS stop doing that bad thing. In fact I can see they post crazycat BDA as part of the driver list!!

BDADataEx V20141107
https://www.tbsiptv.com/download/common/BDADataEx-setup-1.1.4.9.zip
Third party IPData capture application provide by crazycat update to V1.1.4.9

So finger cross.

 

[mdkgr]

Im not sure about IP, i have succesfully used loing time ago throught Technisat Skystar card (SAT/DSL 384kbps DOWN / ISDN 64KBPS UP) with special antenna from them, with some kind of dual lnb (dont know if was TX/RX cause i used ISDN for UPLOAD) i might upload a pic in some time.

For sure you will be able to lock most of content available when setuped preperly as we all do (by content i mean the frequencies posted here in forum)

 

[cayoenrique]

I am getting crazy!
I spent the whole day in this and failed.
1rst I was to fast on my last post. The driver at TBS is one of the OLD ones. So you can be sure it will not do blind-scan.

Now the second Idea from mdkgr was that even when no blind-scan, it could be posible that Original Windows TBS driver mat in fact tune 8pks.
Well, from what I see I have a broken Win7. I had try to delete from OS ALL installed drivers. So that once hook the old TBS drivers can in fact install and work. Well the results is that the drivers cann Install but faild to reset USB as for what ever reason unknown to me once hook ti USB ALWAYs it install Prof7500 firmware. Once the device received 1 firmware it can no longer update to another one. So as result TBS driver install but hangs as new firmware do not get loaded.

I know it is not the receiver because as I said In Linux I can remove the firmware and it will stay as 04b4:8613 Cypress Semiconductor Corp. CY7C68013 EZ-USB FX2 USB 2.0 Development Kit.

I do not have time to Install Windows 7 again. I guess at the end I will have to do. If I want to double check if 8pks can in fact work with TBS drivers. So I am going to bed.....