end? -BISS-CA Conditional Access Mode for BISS2

tevesat

Active member
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946

harshy

Member
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731
If it needs new receivers then maybe a while if it’s backward compatible and just needs software update, it’s game over for motorised dish systems
 

kebien

VIP
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1,329
I think is all referred to the stream level CA,and not the actual video encryption.
All the references in the paper point to encrypted session keys that will become dynamic,but does not really points to the actual Control word the video is encrypted with.

Let's remember that we open BISS using the video CSA CONTROL WORD,surpassing whatever the provider do to authorize their receivers,we tag into the system way AFTER the scrambling or not of session keys or encrypted control words.
It says nothing about the way the video will be encrypted differently from CSA (DVB CISSA is IPTV form of encryption,for what I read)

I venture to say they will need new equipment for this,but meanwhile the video is encrypted with CSA,there is always a way to find the keys the way we are doing now.
Maybe the requirement will be to find new keys IF they change in the middle of events,I doubt it will come down to key changes every 10 seconds
 

digi_knarf

Banned
Messages
119
I am surprised that the EBU took so long. To respond to the long-term spread of the keys especially here.

The lights will go out medium term in the Rainbow table. For no reason there would have been no update on BiSS2.

The idiots who post around the clock keys are the reason for the update! The implementation will take some time... but after that it's dark.
 

kebien

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1,329
I am surprised that the EBU took so long. To respond to the long-term spread of the keys especially here.

The lights will go out medium term in the Rainbow table. For no reason there would have been no update on BiSS2.

The idiots who post around the clock keys are the reason for the update! The implementation will take some time... but after that it's dark.

Explain how is that.
As long as they keep using CSA,you will always find the CW.
You can actually find the CW for ANY csa encrypted feed,which is all of them ,except DES powervu.But only good for less than 10 seconds,still proves that as long as CSA is in use,there is no problem.

The idiots are those that panic way before anything happen,without understanding what the idiots that created this system to find keys really know,and how is done.
The idiots that want to blame others for doing what they are doing,but better,are the ones that started suffering the second they read this thread's title.
So....
suck it up
Everything ends at some point,if it has to end.
 

sector_d

New member
Messages
27
I'm sorry to disapoint you:

Using CSA is not enough for the rainbow tables continue to work.
EBU is well aware of the mechanism we use to obtain the CW.

EBU published the recomendations on how to protect feeds from Rainbow table attacks:

https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/r/r139.pdf

See section 5. They know this for a while, but the task to change the encoding everywhere was a bit hard. Only new encoders could implement it. Now, if they get to do a major new hardware roll-out troughout the industry, you can bet the section 5 and 6 will be implemented, and you can kiss goodbye to any current method to find CW. They do not need to change the CSA entirely.

I think we already see some feeds that follow this recomendation. They will become the standard.
 
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sector_d

New member
Messages
27
So, to summarize, the panic is well funded, for these reasons:

5. The following implementations be considered by equipment vendors:

a. For constant bit-rate mode (CBR) transmission, where “null packets” are used to match
the required bit-rate at PES level, to replace their value with a randomized sequence.

b. For variable bit-rate mode (VBR) transmission, the padding (not encrypted) “null packets

These two points will render the Rainbow Tables useless.
It is us indeed that will suck it up...
 

kebien

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1,329
sector d
Is actually US !!! that posted since the first day Biss was open how to fix the system,since 2007,and prior to that too.

Now you are pointing to the same thing they wrote in 2013 about how to fix it,which is what they learned from US.

So,apparently you live in panic since at least 2013.
So,yes,suck it up.
Every encryption that is open by a method can patch the hole by just reading this forum.And they actually do,if you follow what the providers do to protect their content.
Unless you were never aware,the whole point is the challenge,and providers patching holes just gives people a new challenge.
So,suck it up...

Of course,if you are in business (like writing firmware,or having private forums ) using public stuff like this,and there are many of those,you gonna be really hurt when they start patching this holes.
Did I say suck it up to many times?

It ends when it has to end,not when people start panicking.
 
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sector_d

New member
Messages
27
sector d
Is actually US !!! that posted since the first day Biss was open how to fix the system,since 2007,and prior to that too.

Now you are pointing to the same thing they wrote in 2013 about how to fix it,which is what they learned from US.

So,apparently you live in panic since at least 2013.
So,yes,suck it up.
Every encryption that is open by a method can patch the hole by just reading this forum.And they actually do,if you follow what the providers do to protect their content.
Unless you were never aware,the whole point is the challenge,and providers patching holes just gives people a new challenge.
So,suck it up...

Of course,if you are in business (like writing firmware,or having private forums ) using public stuff like this,and there are many of those,you gonna be really hurt when they start patching this holes.
Did I say suck it up to many times?

It ends when it has to end,not when people start panicking.

Yes, many broadcasters and companies visit this forum, but in other aspects you don't know what you are saying. It can take decades to overcome the "chalenge" as you call it. I guess you don't value the time some of us have spent or the energy. And you have learned nothing from the trend in content protection industry. I invite everyone to compare the key pages from 2004 to what we have now. If it wasn't for BISS, almost nothing. And that will change too soon, and then you will have a nice chalenge for 20+ years.

The note is from 2013, but the oportunity to implement it approaches fast, as the first post indicates.

I work in telecom. I have no interest whatsoever if all of us don't get to kown any BISS keys anymore. In some extent, I have professional access to what I want due to what I work at.
 

kebien

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1,329
sector d
The only trend is,and from the beginning: everything ends.
How much did you learn over the years? did you think you could leave your grandchildren a box that opens everything in your will?
And what if it takes decades to open a system? it actually took that long or more for powervu,as an example,in use since early 90's.
What's the value of your time being one that is at the receiving end of the gadgets?
Unless you tell me you are colibri or beeone (and of course you'd know me if you were),being the ones that did spend their time on this matter), your time and mine have the same value in this hobby and I can say it is a fun trip so far.
I can tell you the ones that jump started all this are really happy with their work,and not much care if everything changes,why would the public be?
If they would have thought like you,nobody would have been benefited by any public release,never.
We differ in the approach to this hobby,I am sure many think like you,but the public would have never ever seen a hack in the open.
You can't do nothing about it,if they decide to stop it all,nothing you can do.
Is a hobby,enjoy it while it last.
Given you reasoning,you being privy to professional information would never share that information freely in the way this guys did,due to the different thinking,this is very clear.
No challenge in that.

Peace,let's not think about the differences,but the hobby that bring us together,we can still be friends without TV.
 

sector_d

New member
Messages
27
We don't differ that much in opinion, in spite of what may seem.
I actually enjoy much more whatching FTA channels when I can and my hobby is more oriented to antennas, RF, low noise, hard-to-get signals. In my opinion, there is still a very good choice of good quality FTA content.

My only goal in the thread was to mention that, equaly to not being justified to "panic" (for me is not the right term here) it is also not right to be overly optimistic. No, sometimes things change hard. And in this case I antecipate an hard change for the worse. For whom it may concern, it was my 2 cents, since I work inside the industry.
 

Ragnarok

Donating Member
Messages
336
The Standard may not take off, Just saying.

NS3 and NS4 has the ability to render feeds effectively invisible too us, that hasn't taken over even though it's been about for years, and makes far better use of the available bandwidth for professional use. Only trouble is that it's a commercial product and hideously expensive.

As mentioned earlier, EBU guidelines haven't been followed en-mass yet.

Though this version of BISS being an open standard is more likely to become a common feature. No licencing fees, and maybe possible to implement with software updates.

It may not take off in practice though.
 
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digi_knarf

Banned
Messages
119
Kebien... you think you're super smart?

You always tell the same lyre. Others would panic. Others have brains and understand the situation. You don't.

The implementation will take some time. But then it's dark forever. And you're not going to change it.

The now open encryptions are based on errors from the early days of this technique. What is now fixed remains tight for ever.

You will not be able... see Tandberg... something to open.
 

BLACKCRUSADER

Well-known member
Messages
1,595
I am surprised that the EBU took so long. To respond to the long-term spread of the keys especially here.

The lights will go out medium term in the Rainbow table. For no reason there would have been no update on BiSS2.

The idiots who post around the clock keys are the reason for the update! The implementation will take some time... but after that it's dark.


The change is to address the commercial use broadcasters who take content to give to cable TV subscribers and countries like India and Pakistan have been at that game a long time. It has nothing to do with the few individuals who watch the content. Even with that now the pirates simply use subscription based STB to send feeds to KODI and ROKU IPTV platforms.

The cost for many companies to change over will be too much and they will insist on the current standard. Just my humble opinion.
 
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kebien

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Kebien... you think you're super smart?

You always tell the same lyre. Others would panic. Others have brains and understand the situation. You don't.

The implementation will take some time. But then it's dark forever. And you're not going to change it.

The now open encryptions are based on errors from the early days of this technique. What is now fixed remains tight for ever.

You will not be able... see Tandberg... something to open.

I am just trying to say TO CALM DOWN...nothing more.
People in this hobby take an even small post and make a pandemonium about something that we all know for years is coming.
People rush to assumptions before ANYTHING HAPPEN !!!,they recycle old news and all the cycle starts again.
Is not uncommon people that recently spent some money in some new and hot box to start worrying about their investment,so they start questioning if its going to end.
Of course all eventually will end,or change,and is because of this that clever people will put their mind and experience into trying to break it.
At some point,I was really into searching streams for new things,discovered a lot,one of those things was new encryptions implementations,they were in the stream for a few years before older version were phased out,the testing period can be really long,since new hardware or new firmware would need time to iron out bugs.This teach you patience.
Let's see,start counting from this day until the CA id 2610 shows up first somewhere in the world,might happen soon or next year,who knows,the only reality is nobody knows.

And also,people should realize someone might have a lot more information that has not bee made public about the systems,those that understand that,if releasing too soon,might just force providers to go in another direction,so the information will be withhold until the providers are fully committed to the new change or system.
So,forgive me for asking for patience.
 

digi_knarf

Banned
Messages
119
That it will take years, nobody denies. Depends on it... whether a completely new hardware is really needed. I suspect it needs new hardware. If not, it will go faster until the first CAID 2610 appears. And whether there will be parallel 2600 and 2610 as usual for years, we will see.

It is uncontroversial for me that it remains dark for ever. Equally uncontroversial is the stupidity to publish encrypted bugs and to offer to the general public. Especially the whole leechers here and elsewhere.

Smart people would use something like that in a small circle. Previously, there were newsgroups that were not so stupid to publish everything.

The receipt will come and then the end.
 

BLACKCRUSADER

Well-known member
Messages
1,595
What comes in the future we do not need to worry about now.
When it comes it comes but it may not be across the industry.
 

ahaladjian

Member
Messages
83
So when will it happen? Is that mean we will not be able open any channels anymore ?
 

harshy

Member
Messages
731
So when will it happen? Is that mean we will not be able open any channels anymore ?

Yes goodbye to motorised dishes, dreambox etc.
 
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